Poll: species mixing

Triops need fairly warm temps: 22° to 31°C (72° - 86°F). Which is generally to warm for newts. Plus triops would be food most likly for the newts and they don't live too long anyways.

By the way: I have kept white clouds with my mudpuppy, but only because they were left over from cycling the tank. I just figured that they'd become food, and I was right.

ive kept blue-spotted sals with spotted sals

What would happen if somone housed a frog and salamander with similiar habitat needs in the same cage??

herpsrcool said:

What would happen if somone housed a frog and salamander with similiar habitat needs in the same cage??

Click to expand...

It really depends upon the species involved and the size of the tank involved. Most people have a small tank (20 gal or less), and in this kind of space, it's really difficult to give each animal enough space to be comfortable and not feel threatened. The other problem is that, depending on where the animals are coming from, they may carry different germs and parasites, which may sicken the other species. This is particularly a problem when the species involved come from different parts of the globe, or come from the pet industry. And there are a whole range of other factors that could affect the success of the mix, but I can't go into every possibility unless I want to spend the day typing. Here are some longer explanations:
About.com: Can I Mix Species When Setting up a Terrarium?
Living Underworld: Species Mixing: New World Syndrome
AmphibianCare.com: Community Reptile and Amphibian Tanks

So the direct answer to your question "what would happen" is: maybe nothing. Or maybe premature death. Early death is more likely, or less likely, depending on the details, and it may happen the next day, or a couple of years later. There's always a risk, so what degree of risk do you consider acceptable?

I have only my Axies in my tank however i did notice the enviroment of alpine newts are very similar, has anyone had axies and alpine newts together?

Tasha, you can't possibly be serious. Please reread my post above. And look at the size difference between these species. Conveniently, the alpine newts are about the same size as an axolotl's mouth.

Personally i wouldnt mix species anyway, i just was wondering. I wouldnt of any way because of the off spring gettin muddled etc

Tasha, that's the least of your concerns. Only closely related species can hybridize, but any big species can eat a littler one.

I've had pond snails, cyclops, daphnia, planaria, wild mosquito larvae, spring tails, slugs, and wood louse all living in one of my set ups at some time or another. This was because my tanks were out side and these animals could creep in. The snails, daphnia, planaria, and cyclops seemed to reproduce on their own while their populations were controlled by feeding newts. That said, I've never intentional mixed caudates with invertebrates, and usually when I see foreign invertebrates pop up in my tank, I welcome the dietary supplement.

if i have a single specimen-like an unknown subspecies female firebelly i dont find any problem putting her in with my C.e. popei -as long as they arent breeding at the time.

Mixing subspecies isn't quite the same as mixing vastly different species, like Pleurodeles and Cynops.

I mix species.
I have shrimp, snails and white clouds in with my Pleurodeles.
I have shrimp, snails and white clouds in with my Paramesotriton (in two separate tanks)
And i have snails white clouds and 2 green frogs with my Necturus (the Frogs were Tadpole food that has survived... This was before i had any Knowledge of chytrid and tadpoles are no longer offered.
(there is also a large crayfish living in the sump of this tank for housekeeping.)
I also keep isopods with my Salamandra as a clean up crew. they probably eat the big guys but there's always a number that are smaller and ignored.

mixing

I have had several habitats over the years where I mixed frogs, salamanders, crayfish, fish, insects and even lizards and snakes. They were 75 gal or larger and all the animals were found in the same area. There was an occasional animal eaten but surprisingly not very often at all. It made the habitats far more interesting to people viewing them, trying to find all the inhabitants. Some of the inhabitants even bred and produced young in the habitat.

I once had a green salamander lay eggs in a habitat with fence swifts, crayfish and seal salamanders. I worried about the eggs so I removed them, though they didn't hatch. It was a fun habitat to watch.

I recommend it, though it seems to be much more successful in large habitats, at least it has been for me. I guess I have never really tried to do it in a small tank. It seems more risky.

I've kept CFBN with guppies and Tanichthys albonubes - i was not good mix, newts looks stressed and were often hiding or even left water.
I've kept CFBN with a pair of Hymenochirus sp. (african dwarf frog) - newts and frogs were ignorating each other. But i did it only for one time , i don't want to mix them again.
I'm keeping CFBN with Red Cherry shrimps and, of course, snails- no problems, newts sometimes try to hunt on shrimps, but they never catch them and shrimps are still breeding. Snails are in all my tanks - i like them.
Also i have Hymenochirus with Corydoras habrosus and Tanichthys albonubes in another tank.

naturejoe said:

I have had several habitats over the years where I mixed frogs, salamanders, crayfish, fish, insects and even lizards and snakes. They were 75 gal or larger and all the animals were found in the same area. There was an occasional animal eaten but surprisingly not very often at all. It made the habitats far more interesting to people viewing them, trying to find all the inhabitants. Some of the inhabitants even bred and produced young in the habitat.

I once had a green salamander lay eggs in a habitat with fence swifts, crayfish and seal salamanders. I worried about the eggs so I removed them, though they didn't hatch. It was a fun habitat to watch.

I recommend it, though it seems to be much more successful in large habitats, at least it has been for me. I guess I have never really tried to do it in a small tank. It seems more risky.

Click to expand...

Hi Joe, the key things that people should note about what you said:

• You were using tanks 75 gallons or larger
• You were willing to accept an occasional "eaten" incident
• The animals were all coming from the same geographical area

These conditions do not apply to 99% of the "mixing" that new hobbyists try to do. So I would say that you shouldn't really "recommend" this to the masses, as very few people will be able to do what you do (and accept the occasional "incident"). I also think that if you are still doing exhibits like this, you should tell people "don't do this at home".

Even if animals come from the same general habitat one has to be careful to consider each individual animals' microhabitat. A fence lizard in the wild may certainly be found sunning itself on a log that has salamanders hiding underneath but the two animals require vastly different conditions to do well in captivity. I believe that many mixes are possible but this really should only be attempted after the first two stages of herpetoculture are mastered. Stage one is keeping the animal alive and healthy. Stage two is breeding the animal (or at least providing an appropriate enough environment for the animal to breed if the keeper desires). Stage three would be investigating possible mixes in a naturalistic vivarium. I have always believed that these are good guidelines to follow whether it is a salamander or boa being kept. These stages by the way should be credited to Phillipe DeVosjoli.
Chip

In the end i think your position about mixing species is reduced to two facts...
If you give importance to the "looks" or to the "interesting" possibilities...then you may be a mixer.
If what you care for more is the well being and health of all your animals, then you probably know better than to take risks.

I care a great deal about the health and well being of my animals. I also care that they have as natural an environment as possible. For the interest of viewers, having more than a single individual or species is also important to me since education is a big part of why I keep animals to begin with. I also find it very fascinating to watch interactions between individuals of the same and different species. Because of mixed vivariums I have seen some very amazing interactions, other than predator/prey.

I once had a seal salamander live with a crayfish in its burrow. They stayed together for three months. I felt bad releasing them back to the wild. I had a male fence lizard that would display to salamanders when they came out like they were a potential mate. I once witnessed a toad get on a painted turtles shell and ride around the tank on it and the turtle didn't submerge until the toad dismounted. The turtle never tried to eat the toad either. (There was land and the toad had a burrow.) I had a tank with largemouth bass in it that a boy put a red-spotted newt in. He thought it would be fun to see the bass eat the newt. The bass did try but spit the newt out immediately and the newt lived in that tank for the rest of the summer and the bass wouldn't look at another newt to eat. I can go on and on.

I also once had a desert habitat with bearded dragons, uromastyx and chuckwallas living together with a small sulcatta tortoise. Not only did they live, I got eggs from all three species of lizards. I still have the sulcatta. He is big now.

An 11 year old volunteer at the nature center I used to run had a leopard gecko, white's tree frog, flying gecko and anole in the same 29 gal. tank. His mother said he has had them that way for a few years. I was concerned, just as you would be, but all were in excellent health. I did give him another tank to at least get the leopard gecko to a desert environment.

The natural history information I and many, many others learned watching these interactions are priceless. You may even be surprised if I tell you that very few animals were ever eaten or even killed by others they shared space with.

I certainly do not think all species can or should be mixed. So long as each animal gets what it needs to live a good life, I don't think it is wrong to mix species, and I certainly am not the type to say that I can do it but you should not. There is a risk involved and if you don't want to risk it don't do it, but please don't pass judgement on others that do.

Joe

Hey Joe,
I hope that you do not think that we are being too judgemental. It is just that, as Jen pointed out, the vast majority of people who ask about mixing on this forum are usually beginners. In addition they are usually trying to cram everything into a 10 or 20 gallon tank. I have seen some really spectacular exhibits at zoos and public aquariums involving all sorts of mixes, and most of these were in massive enclosures (or at least very large when compared to a 10 gallon tank). Also, it is important to consider that by mixing we are accepting the possibility of a loss, however off chance it may be. Many of the folks that frequent this forum are passionate about their animals and that is a risk that they are usually not willing to take. In any case you seem to have a wealth of experience that we would like for you to share so I hope that you continue to post. Take care.
Chip

This is perfect I have a very nice 55 gal with a Tiger Salamander in it. I also have a 55gal. with a spotted sal. my question is if i go to make my other 55 like this one can i put those two together or will there be some problems? i dont think they would attack each other but i am concerned about the secreetions from the spotted especialy. I am almost thinking they could live happily in this tank together. but i do not want to chance it if there is a possibility of somthing happining.